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Peace be upon you,
This is my response to an email sent by brother Bahman to brother Kyle (It was CC'd to me) And was also posted to the Yahoo bulletin board "God Alone Qur'an Alone". It is available at http://www.y19.net/challenge.html. It is printed in its entirety on this page, without my article, which can be read here. Bahman Goharzad's comments in bold <ynineteen@yahoo.com> Ian McNamara's responses in normal print.
*19* Praise be to GOD, Lord of Universe.17:361 Mentioning others alongside God? I thought you condemned those who mention Muhammad next to God, and now here you are putting the number 19 next to Him and emphasizing the 19. Peace be upon you Brother Kyle. Your attempt in search of facts and truth is helping to expose cheats and fraud and lead truth seekers to straight path. Your doubt and suspicious about Miracle which links to your limited ability of understanding Arabic Language ( as you said). You are honest and confess that this limitations has avoided to witness that 19 pages of Miracle2. But there are some forgers and charlatan which they taking advantage of this situation and try to show that Miracle is man made and is invented by Rashad Khalifa. I hope you are not accusing me of such a thing, no where did I say anything of the sort. The 19-structure found in the Qur'an is not "beyond probability", as shown by the existance of the 7-code in the Bible, and the removal of two verses from the Qur'an definately makes it easier to find 19's. You make what you will of what it means if the code is not a miracle, but do not put words in my mouth. I have posted3 an article about search and discoveries one of the most famous scientist for new mathematics to handle human future science and technology. 30 years if study of Dr.Plishta4 and his 19 years to discover mathematics of Creation was not done to support Rashad Khalifa assignment and proof of Quran. I recommend you to read his book under the title "God's Secret Formula."5 He has done search in several fields, Astronomy, Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, ... and he reach to samething OVER IT ARE NINETEEN. Well Dr. Plishta's work is not exactly the most respected and credible
in science. To my knowledge, Dr. Plishta's work is to do with prime numbers
in general, not the number 19. To quote a friend of mine "If you go looking
for mathematical
Dear Brother. You do not have to learn Arabic to witness MIracle. There are many other science and technology solid links that even those that rae not 100% sure about Rashad assignment by GOD6 can not avoid it. Here you can witness many Science-Miracle7 solid links which do not not need Arabic knowledge. The web master is a member of this forum board8 Witnessing Miracle can be forced to any body. There many brothers that have lot of knowledge in many fields but they are not ready to see the Miracle and there are many that do posses lot of knowledge but can understand and see Miracle. The first group are truth seekers and when they are asked for proof of QURAN they have a lot of difficulties to persuade others with their philosopher words. The second group explain the Mathematical structure and ask if rejecter CAN PRODUCE A SURA LIKE THESE9 I received your e-mail with following the CLAIM for meeting challenge imitating Mathematical Structure of Quran for one Lets take for example sister Myriam on Qur'anResearch, she has said
that she has a very limited understading of mathematics but is so afraid
that she will go to Hell because she cannot understand the code. 19-believers
tell her that she goes to Hell if she doesn't accept the code, but how
can she honestly say that she thinks it
If one cannot understand why it is a miracle, how can they accept it as such? By "explain the mathematical structure", I assume you mean to recite, without understanding, the "facts". If these people do not understand probability, or do not apply their understanding, how can they see if it is a miracle or not? I have not met a single 19-code believer who has accepted the fact that the probability of the "facts" in Abdullah Arik's book "Beyond Probability" is only 1 in 19, as opposed to 1 in 189,000 (rounded). Maybe you can explain to me why it is not 1 in 19, I will, God willing, send you a copy of my messages outlining why it is 1 in 19 if you wish The person claiming such lie could be a mocker, uniformed, or charlatan. Excuse me? He could just be a seeker of the truth. Or is anyone who poses a threat to the validity of your beliefs, or dares to not follow Rashad Khalifa blindly, a mocking, uninformed, charlatan? I appreciate that your search could result to expose fraud and cheats of enemies of ISLAM. Please send this copy instead of this person confusing claim to others other way you will be responsible too in the Day of Judgment. When this character is not able to Imitate GOD's WORDS Mathematical Structure then he starts to analyze his GREAT work by probability and not PROBABILITY10 He is trying to divert reader to his own world of cheat and fraud like his partners doing in their discussion11. I have written my response to this person and you witness what is going on. "When he starts to analyze his GREAT (I don't see the need for sarcasm, or putting words into my mouth whichever you are doing here) work by probability and not PROBABILITY"? I dont understand, probability in capital letters is different to probability in little letters? I gave you the probability 1 in 1,978,419,656,000,000,000,000,000 Which is, funnily enough, 19 to the power of 19, how about that? This is different to the number you have because there was a mistake in that version (Which was not ready for publication, and published without my permission, the newest and more accurate article is available here) "He is trying to divert reader to his own world of cheat and fraud like his partners doing in their discussion." What an unfounded insult brother, I don't know what the law is where you come from, but here in Australia I can have you charged for defamation for that. I do not defraud people, and I am not cheating. I have no "partners". This is baseless accusation and I ask that you apologise for these insults. Let me ask you this, if the 19-code is so obvious, and obviously "beyond probability" why isn't every mathematition around the word converting to Islam? They are in the best position to appreciate it's supposed greatness. I suppose that God is just making the mathematical knowledge useless, and only those who just "have faith" can see it? Where is the science in that? Brother, you act so much like the Sunni's who you despise, most of the 19-code believers seem to do so. You condemn me for questioning the validity of your beliefs, merely questioning the accuracy of Abdullah Ariks calculations had me condemned to Hell a great many times by various people. I present many facts, and mathematical proofs, yet never has any mathematical proof been shown to me that I am incorrect in criticising Mr. Arik who himself failed to explain to me why my calculations are wrong. I am now censored like the Sunni's do to those who believe in the 19-code. Do you see the parallel? I surely hope that you knew I was on the yahoo bulletin board when you
posted your message implying that I am a cheater, or one who defrauds people.
83:1 refers to people who are fraudulent in their dealings, care to point
out to me who I am defrauding? Is anyone who dares to question your beliefs
a disbeliever, a liar,
God willing I will now answer your criticism in its entirety. I think if you read the entire article you will see that all of your problems have already been explained, but alas I think you have read it with an entirely subjective point of view with the aim of proving me wrong, instead of seeking the truth. I apologise if any of my comments were a too harsh, or if I misinterpreted you, but I took your insults quite personally. I hope that you will post my response to your complaints on your site and apologise for your insults. God willing I will re-do the responses to criticism section of my article to make it a bit easier for others to follow. The newest version of the "Mathematical Sura Like It" is available at: http://monotheism.faithweb.com/response.html
Mr. Ian McNamara: Miracle has been discovered 1974 and since then nobody has claimed can imitate Methematical Structure of Quran. Wrong, many have said that the code is replicable, a superior version is present in my sura, and I have seen and heard about it being present in other books, for example I believe Winnie the Pooh was used as an example. Also the 7-code found in the Bible, you have to admit that 150 facts for a single paragraph (Which Ivan Panin found in a chapter of Marks Gospel) is pretty impressive, and I do not see that for the 19-code. Last year durin our debate with SUNNIS in Yahoo ISLAM Message BOARD12 one ofm those disbelivers tried to imtate13 Miracle which had total failure like yours but better and more clear to see his work . His is not a response to the sura challenge, and definately did not produce all of the possible "miracles" using dates either. If you cannot understand my work, how can you understand Dr.Khalifa's work? Did you care to look at the probability of my chapter?
Any submitter familiar with Mieacle could see your obviouse attempt to show that Miracle is an invention of human. You are putting words in my mouth. I set out to see if the code was replicable or not, to show myself. It is up to you to make your own conclusions from the article. Let us check waht you have done: You have ignored requirement for 3, 4, 5, 6....15, 16, 17, 19. this means that you could preform only item 2 item of 19 condition 2 and 18 That is a contradiction to what you say below, you yourself state that I fulfilled challenges: 1,2,6,10,11,12,13,18 I have fulfilled atleast 8 challenges by your own admission. I will answer some of what you claim are failures below, God willing. You are not honest when you say: "I do not understand arabic." and later you state: " have read almost all of the research on the number 19 which has been made available to me. **I have never seen any sura** which fulfills the challenge which submission.org has put forward I am perfectly honest, you just misunderstood me. I cannot understand the arabic language, I can however read arabic script, so checking for words, and letters is not a problem. I just cannot compose or read what it is actually saying. That is correct, I have never seen any sura which fulfils the challenge, and I would be happy if you could tell me which one does, but then again, all of them should fulfil the challenge shouldn't they, since to make a "sura like it" I should only have to replicate the mathematical structure of the sura which is easiest to duplicate shouldn't I? The verse used for this challenge says that "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another." Is not my verse atleast something like it? Mathematically speaking ofcourse. If there is a single sura which has less mathematical composition than mine, then you would have to agree that it must be a "sura like it". Is not that true that Miracle is based on Arabic TEXT and reader to do complete search needs some Arabic knowledge.? When you do not Arabic then you should try to imitate one of those discoveries13 not linking to Arabic text other way the result will the mess that we witness. I do have "some arabic knowledge" as pointed out above. Well, I do not see how composing in english or composing in arabic makes any difference, it is the mathematical structure that is important. Now let us see how many of those challenges are met by MR. Ian McNamara: The Challenge, Sura like it: Please note that I did not try to take the submission.org challenge from the start, I began with just trying to replicate the "Simple Facts" from Appendix 1 of Dr. Khalifa's translation, and then tried to do something similar to the initials. From this point I merely made refinements to fulfil the gematrical values challenge and so on (When I found the submission.org challenge). Please produce a sura like it ,that has the following criteria ,that is similar to some of what we see in the Quran. You can write it in either Arabic, English or any other language of your choice. Arabic will meet all the criteria as it is the language of the Quran, however using any other language to try to achieve all the rest of the criteria will be acceptable. This means the challenge is open to all the human beings in all the languages: Note: Any language may be used. Even they will admit that it makes no difference which language you use. A.E.H.M.R.S.T.U.Y.
(2) The total number of words is a multiple of 19. Yes (3) The word God and two of his attributes should be used each, say, eleven times. NO Would you mind telling me whether or not God fulfilled this in sura 96? Besides, as I said, I used Allah, and Most Praised. This is the same concept as the challenge presented here. On top of this, where is the _19_ in this challenge exactly? (4)The word messenger should be used five times. NO 5 is not equal to 19 brother. How many times did God say messenger in sura 96? (5) The word law should be used seven times. NO 7 is not equal to 19 also, and how many times did God use the word law in sura 96? As I said in my article these challenges have _nothing_ to do with the number 19. They are just arbitrary additions. (6) The number of the letter "Alif", "A" should be a multiple of 19. Yes (7) The number of the letter "L" should be a multiple of 19. No Answered collectively below. (8) The number of the letter "K", should be a multiple of 19. No Answered collectively below. (9) The number of the letter "H", should be a multiple of 19. No. Answered collectively below. (10) The number of the letter "S", should be a multiple of 19. Yes (11)The number of the letter "R", should
(12)The number of the letter "Y", should be a multiple of 19. Yes (13)The number of the letter "M", should be a multiple of 19. Yes (14)The number of the letter "N", should be a multiple of 19. No Answered collectively below. (15)The number of the letter "Q", should be a multiple of 19. No Ok, I have a few points in rebuttal to this:
The probability that nine different letters occur a multiple of 19 times
is:
Quite a bit more impressive isn't it? (16) If you choose to use numbers inside your statements, their total. when added together, should be a multiple of 19. If you are not using numbers then substitute this factor by manipulating the numbers in such a way that if you multiply the number of the words in the third verse (sentence) by the number of its letters, the total should be a multiple of 19. NO Well I guess you chose not to count 19 as part of the sura, however I did provide an alternate proof: Alternatly: The sum of the initials in the verse where the sura number plus the verse number is a multiple of 19 (Which actually relates to the number 19 unlike submission.org's challenge to use verse 3) is a multiple of 19. Does this have more to do with the number 19 than choosing verse 3? I'll give you another one: My opening verse has 19 letters in it. There you go I fulfilled the 19 letter challenge. And guess what, if you multiply the letters (19x1) by the number of words (4) you get 19x4! The challenge presented is also mathematically flawed as shown in my article. (17) While reading your statements, the reader would close his/her lips, pronouncing your words, 19 times or a multiple of nineteen. ( as in Sura 1 in the Quran).NO I provided extra proofs to compensate for this. How many sura's fulfil this challenge brother? Once again, extra facts are provided, which you failed to include in your analysis, to make up for this. (18) If you add the gematrical value of all the letters you use in your writing, they should be a multiple of 19. The gematrical values of the Arabic Alphabets are known and can be found on our web site. The gematrical value of the English Alphabets or any other language can be assumed as A=1, B=2, C= 3...etc., if you choose to write it in English or any other language. Let us know these values when you are done. YES! (19) These 19 sentences should make complete and perfect laws
or advise for moral correction and should be grammatically and linguistically
sound.
Has this got anything to do with the number 19? No. Does the sura make sense? Yes. What more do you want? I cannot make a set of perfect laws, I am not God! The challenge is to recreate the code, ofcourse the chapter must make sense as it does. I am not reproducing the Qur'an but rather the claimed "miracle". So I do not feel that I must fulfil this. If I fulfilled this challenge then the Qur'an would be proven to not be the word of God. Nobody has yet shown me which sura in the Qur'an fulfils this challenge. You try to take away the legitimacy of my statement that no sura in the Qur'an (known to me) actually fulfils it, by saying that I do not know arabic. Well brother, show me which sura does. How about this, since you think my sura is such an obvious failure to replicate the code, show me which sura fulfils all the same properties which mine does. How about it brother? Does such a sura exist? But ofcourse all of the suras in the Qur'an should fulfil the same properties of my sura, yet, they don't do they? God bless,
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